Clippers' Eric Gordon makes a couple of points-Mo vs. BD (P. 3)

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david
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I just find it a bit humorous comparing Eric Gordon to Baron Davis. They're not even playing the same position. But ask 100 Clipper or any NBA fan who would you rather have, and I think 100 out of the 100 would resoundingly say "EJ!"

What's the deal with EJ having to "prove" anything more anyways? I don't get it. He's already proven he can score 24 points a game- a terrific young player who does it on both ends of the floor. He himself can't take a team to the playoffs- it takes a TEAM.

Clippersfan86
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LOL at Bledsoe being a cracked out lunatic. Good post Taylor.

clipper*joe
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^^ For the last time, this isn't really a comparison. It's about what EJ meant. We all know EJ wants be the guy and it was Baron who was standing in his way. We don't know what relationship they both had but we do know where the animosity came from, just one side. We can speculate who was at fault but none of us know. We also know EJ got his looks and his stats prove that. Gordon wasn't anything more than a spot up shooter until this season. He didn't move on offense and he wasn't playing well off the ball. That falls on EJ, not Baron.

And just so we can kinda put perspective on this, in Baron's short time here ( lazy, fat, and unmotivated), here is where he ranks amongst the All-Time Clippers leaders in the following categories:

Assists: 7th all-time

Assists per game: 3rd all-time

Steals per game: 7th all-time

Assist %: All Time best- He holds the record with the best assist % in Clippers history

Steal %: 9th all time

Usage %: 9th all time in usage per game- kinda ironic when you consider he is fat, lazy, and unmotivated.

Statistically speaking, he did his job well for a PG.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/tea ... areer.html

Clippersfan86
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Exactly. Good stuff David.

Clippersfan86
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Joe question for you. If you bought a Honda you expect reliability and good gas mileage for the price you pay right? Would you accept it was constantly breaking down and running out of gas when you need it the most? Or would you want your money back and be furious? Baron wasn't terrible.. but he sure as hell wasn't what we paid for/expected.

Baron is the Honda in case I lost anyone.

Cliptonyte
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Yes it does. It's pretty sad that someone would even feel empowered from being a mod on an internet message board LOL

youngkano
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Um i think everyone has been blaming Baron for this lost season. Especially when we were playing well saying where we could or should be had he came in healthy. For a second lets not focus on Baron. Its about EJ. What has he done to validate himself as our closer because thats what he wants. Yeah he comes into camp in good shape, as does most on our roster. Has he played enough games? Has he proven he can close out games? What has he done to be able to talk about someone saying that person is a homerun hitter. Kinda dissing him. Yet hasnt done anything to warrant him as our leader. A leader has to be on the hardwood, noton the bench every year watching in street clothes.

Clippersfan86
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Cliptonyte wrote:
clipsfansincebirth wrote:
Since when does a good moderator of any website start jumping on people's throats just because they don't agree with someones idea.............looks like power does corrupt............sad

Yes it does. It's pretty sad that someone would even feel empowered from being a mod on an internet message board LOL

I've never seen Joe use his Mod status to try to punk anyone or act superior. He's a passionate guy and you all may disagree but to make it sound like he's on a power trip is stupid. He said he regretted unbanning someone. You guys are lucky you're dealing with Joe because if it was me I would of banned you long ago. He's given all of you attacking him multiple chances.

Remember Moderators are here to keep things peaceful and other posters feeling comfortable here. If we allow you to get bold with mods and sit here and troll us.. people aren't going to respect the fact that we are mods. The only reason I'm not issuing bans is because I don't want to step on Joe's toes but you guys need to relax.

This business of challenging mods on a personal level... calling them frauds, control freaks, losers who care about online reputation and racists needs to stop. I'm giving everyone involved in this an official warning. We like having you all around but if you can't respect moderators and stop trolling you will have to find another Clippers forum to post on.

Cliptonyte
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I can honestly say that I have never seen Clipper Joe say anything racist. I don't agree with the guy on much of anything, but it's silly to play the race card.

Clippersfan86
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How many times did Michael Jordan fail before he became the most clutch player in the game? He's talked it it multiple times how his failures are what made him so great. Eric Gordon has failed us in the clutch a few times this year with stupid turnovers and missed shots but he's also won a couple games for us.. and in Utah's double OT game he flat out carried us. Once he went out with injury we lost by 2 points.

The first step to being a closer in this game is the desire. The second step is all the failure.. and feeling how crappy it is to let your team down multiple times. The third step is learning to hate that feeling so much that you make it a personal mission to not fail. That's how clutch players like Melo, CP3 and Kobe in this league became closers. You don't come into the league clutch.. it's almost always developed.

Blake Griffin has shown a little bit of desire to close games.. but Eric Gordon has shown killer instinct we didn't think he had. I think he will become a great clutch player sooner rather than later.

clipper*joe
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Cliptonyte wrote:
clipsfansincebirth wrote:
Since when does a good moderator of any website start jumping on people's throats just because they don't agree with someones idea.............looks like power does corrupt............sad

Yes it does. It's pretty sad that someone would even feel empowered from being a mod on an internet message board LOL

empowered in what way? Is my opinion any different than yours? or do you feel threatened by a person who was asked to moderate? I've never used my "power" to do anything outside of the rules of this forum. Yes, I'm opinionated but who isn't? If you are threatened by me while sitting in the comfort of your own home or work, I think it's pretty sad you would feel that way. I've never trumped my status here and have never used my "power" to quiete anyone's opinion that had to do with the specific topics.

So if you have some insecurities about your opinion, that's on you. Whether I am a moderator or not, my opinion isn't going to change. Don't blame me for your own insecurities. Had you been here when I joined and wasn't a moderator, then you'd know I've never changed. It's just laughable that people who are insecure about their own opinions are using oppression as way of justifying their own shortcomings.

Clippersfan86
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clipper*joe wrote:
Cliptonyte wrote:
clipsfansincebirth wrote:
Since when does a good moderator of any website start jumping on people's throats just because they don't agree with someones idea.............looks like power does corrupt............sad

Yes it does. It's pretty sad that someone would even feel empowered from being a mod on an internet message board LOL

empowered in what way? Is my opinion any different than yours? or do you feel threatened by a person who was asked to moderate? I've never used my "power" to do anything outside of the rules of this forum. Yes, I'm opinionated but who isn't? If you are threatened by me while sitting in the comfort of your own home or work, I think it's pretty sad you would feel that way. I've never trumped my status here and have never used my "power" to quiete anyone's opinion that had to do with the specific topics.

So if you have some insecurities about your opinion, that's on you. Whether I am a moderator or not, my opinion isn't going to change. Don't blame me for your own insecurities. Had you been here when I joined and wasn't a moderator, then you'd know I've never changed. It's just laughable that people who are insecure about their own opinions are using oppression as way of justifying their own shortcomings.

I wonder if clipsfansincebirth drives a big truck too......Seems like you're going through a little bit of projection here clips.

clipperboy24
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Clippersfan86 wrote:
youngkano wrote:
We all can agree Eric Gordon is a better player than Baron this year. That isnt the issue. When one opens his mouth complaining about a guy always trying ti hit home run, but yet cant even hit a home run himself, hasnt taken us to the playoffs, hasnt been healthy enough wjere the nba considers his stats qualified for anything due to lack of games played. Not just this season but the past seasons. Im not debating that Eric isnt better. I'm saying if you can't close out games and if you failrd in cutch situations to win games then you have no right to speak on it. He's just as bad as Baron then. Until u prove it, until u can takr us to the playoffs, until you can stay healthy and on the court long enough for our team to make a playoff run, then you dont deserve to be the Man either. You have to earn it. He wanted to be the one holding the ball at end of games. But he could never hold onto it.

How could anyone take this young, inexperienced roster to the playoffs? Nobody here is even faulting Baron for that. Baron was just supposed to be in shape and do his job and he didn't do that for 2 of the 2.5 years he was here. You expected 20 and 21 year old Eric Gordon to carry us to the playoffs lol? He wasn't a 1st pick in the draft he was a 7th. This year was a chemistry building year and everyone got injured.. next year will be the real test for Eric Gordon and Blake. It will be the year nobody else is a leader above them and they can prove their worth and ability to carry.

excellent post, repped.

All i wanted was for Baron to come to camp in shape and play hard and i really believed things would look up from there. Maybe we still didnt make the playoffs in that scenario but at least we would have been much more competitive.

clipper*joe
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You know, things haven't been great here for the last month or so. I know sometimes I come off a bit loud. I also know I carry conversations very passionately, in other words, I rarely back down. That's just me. I really can't change that. I haven't used my status to alter people's opinions but it seems I keep hearing that. The same card is always thrown out which is wrong in my opinion but I can't change that either. So the last few weeks I've tried to figure out a way to change that. The only conclusion I came up with, was to walk away from being a moderator. I guess these brushes with other members just solidified my decision. It hasn't been fun for a while now and it hasn't been fun coming here feeling like I'm walking on eggshells. Maybe coming here as just a regular member will help ease people's opinions about why I am who I am. That's not what I signed up for. When things ain't fun anymore, it's time to move on.

So anyway, I'm going to ask david to take the moderator status away. Now that we have 4 other moderators, I think it's best for this forum that I step down.

This was the perfect situation to make that move. I really think that's best for me. I'd rather come here and talk about the Clippers and not have to worry about people thinking I'm on some sort of "power trip".

Plus, CF86 is doing a hell of a job. Very Happy

youngkano
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86 i can agree with you there about desire, trying and failing. One thing you failed to mention was that when Jordan failed he didnt blame anyone. He but the blame all on his shoulder. My point exactly people here blame Baron for a lot of losses this year and say he dogged it. I didnt see that this year. I actually seen Gordon dogg it last year. End of season, after a steal or bad pass that lead to a steal, he wouldnt even get back on defense just hung his head. If Gordon wants to be the man and fail then take the blame. Blame himself for some of those losses, blame himself for not being able to play with the team and on the hardwood. But he doesnt do that, in his mind its probably all barons fault. Everyone blaming Baron, but blame should around. Let me ask this. Next season, since Baron is gone, who will be held accountable? Will it be Ej? And if he gets injured and we dont make playoffs, because we are expected to make it next year righ. Will you put EJ accountable. Id love to eat my words, but if he gets injured and miss games again and hasnt figured to close out games what will u say then. Who will u blame then?

Cliptonyte
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It sounds like you are talking about yourself there Joe. I have no insecurities about my opinions at all. It is you who comes across as insecure. Your constant refusal to admit that Baron Davis was a colossal failure here is pure homerism. You have the right to believe what you want though, but the world is flat for you, and you will never change your opinion because you don't want to admit to being wrong about the guy. I thought he was going to be great here, and guess what, I was wrong. I have no problem admitting to be wrong. However, it seems like you do my friend.

I don't really think you are empowered are on a power trip, but there are mods out there who do get empowered by being mods of a message board. I've seen them over the years. If you were on a power trip, you would constantly threaten to ban people. You guys do a good job.

elton_sucks42
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LoneyROY7 wrote:
youngkano wrote:
in the clutch? haha you mean in the 4th quarter but before the game is on the line? maybe becuause he doesnt shoot much because he always looses the ball so that doesnt count as a shot? lol

http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

Do some research before you make blanket, untrue statements.

Of the top ten clutch players so far this season, guess who is shooting the highest percentage? Yep, it's Eric Gordon.

LOL. people just love to state information without doing research.

youngkano
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But how many times has he gotten a shot off? I would love for someone to show me the posession he had a chance to shoot and the made field goals. Then id be satisfied, other than that the percentage dont mean crap if you arent getting much opporitunies to shoot due to turnovers.

Cliptonyte
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I don't think you need to step down Joe. You guys do a good job. You are a very passionate fan, as am I. We just disagree, and we'll have to agree to disagree. BTW I am a bit of a homer when it comes to DeAndre Jordan, so there LOL

Cliptonyte
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We all had high expectations, and we're all a bit disappointed. Perhaps we're taking our frustration out on one another?

clipper*joe
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Actually no. You're confusing confidence in my opinions as insecurity. I know my passion can be misconstrued as overly aggressive. I get that. I know I come off brash when engaged, I know that too. Maybe my mistake has come from not stepping back and observing more. That's where I know I made a mistake. That's why I think it's time to rid myself of that moderator title.

As far as the world being flat, wrong there too. You just haven't been here long enough to know I wanted Baron gone before the end of his first season. People who were here during that time would vouch for that. See, I changed my mind about him during his second season so the world isn't always flat. I think you have been a DJ apologist this whole time while I have changed my mind on him. I think my opinions evolve more than you think. There is fine line between seeing the world as flat versus standing by your opinions.

If you look up that link I posted on an earlier post, Baron is arguably the best PG we've ever had based on those ranks. It's a team sport and his job was to distribute. And according to the link, he ranks as one of the best PG's this franchise has had. Again, you say I see the world as flat, I say you have a very closed mind.

youngkano
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Im kinda glad Baron is gone. No more blame our season on Baron. Im just curious who will be the scapegoat next. Since Griffin is untouchable, and Gordon is too good to blame anything on. Will it be kaman next season? This will be interesting.

Clippersfan86
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Joe you and I are the only ones who moderate around here lately so we need you man. Ekker is busy often and TCI is going to school full time. Don't step down because of a few newer posters having issues. You're the veteran around here and the first mod we had.

clipperAndrew
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Personally I had a few "runs in" with Joe in the past couple weeks and I disagree with much of what he says he doesnt need to give up his moderator tag. I felt that with it he should be one of the more optimistic clipper fans. I have taken his critical clipper stance on many topics as being a pessimist. So for that I apologize.

However this Baron Vs. Mo...or pretty much any topic about Baron has made this site uneasy. I take blame for my part in fueling the fire. I will try a better job in taking peoples views more open mindedly.

as for being a racist...lol I do not see anything of the sort that suggests what he says is racist.

jarca
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u didnt see him miss games? u didnt see him get booed in our first home game against dallas? In the 1st half he was barely walking the ball then boom the bench came and we came back from a double digit deficit only for baron to bring the team down again.

Clippersfan86
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Well.... Eric Gordon never blamed Baron I don't think.. he just didn't like him. Remember guys not everyone is going to be all buddy buddy. Every great team has had their issues. This is a competitive pro sports team and not a brotherhood. I would prefer everyone on the team be friends and all that but it's not how it works. I never remember Eric Gordon blaming Baron for any of the teams failures.. I just think they didn't like each other or respect each other.

Personally I've already told Joe and the others.. Baron isn't the only one to blame. Every single player should be held accountable on this team for recent failures.. this season as well as previous ones. I was just speaking on Baron because we were all debating in this thread. I could talk about Kaman, Eric Gordon, Elton Brand and any other recent players in the same light because nobody is perfect.

The only reason I was unhappy with Baron is because I know how good he is. I know when healthy, in shape and motivated he's arguably a top 3-5 PG. Knowing that he had that in him for so long and we only got to see it this season after trade rumors started makes me sad honestly. I would love to have Baron right now if I knew he would be healthy and in shape. Personality wise.. and intangibles wise Baron Davis blows Mo Williams away.

He was always in our young players ears coaching them and helping them learn and he was the first one to defend his teammates. I'll miss those things for sure. Mo Williams doesn't seem to have these attributes.

Cliptonyte
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Joe, I have been a Clippers fan long enough to know that even if he was the best point guard we have ever had, that isn't really saying much. Baron Davis of 5 years ago, would easily be the best we've ever had, but he hasn't been that guy for the last 3 years.

I've seen guys like Gary Grant, Mark Jackson, Doc Rivers, Pooh Richardson, Andre Miller, Sam Cassell etc. Baron Davis in his prime is indeed better than any of those guys in their primes. The Baron Davis of the last 3 years being better than those guys is highly debatable.

You still don't get that he hasn't been that guy. He hasn't been All Star caliber Baron Davis, since he was at Golden State. Whether he has been one of our best point guards, doesn't matter. He hasn't been as good as he was supposed to have been, and he hasn't been worth his contract. His work ethic and effort have been subpar.

You are the closed minded one my friend. I concede your points that he was one of the best we've ever had. The difference is that you will not concede that he was a disappointment here and did not live up to expectations or his reputation.

I am not going to waste anymore of my time arguing this with you.

jarca
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^^^^^ agreed. we should poll topbuzz to see if baron davis' era was a failure or success. ONLY two options, let's see which one will win

youngkano
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So everyone is clear, its not like im just defending baron. It seems like thats what everyone thinks. My point of view has always been, dont put the blame on one guy and not hold anyone else accountable. Its a team game. If you are gonna blame Baron for hia faults then you should blame kaman, Gordon, and whoever else that makes the clipper a team. I feel lik everyone gangs up on Baron and not looking at anyone esle. And feel like i have to defend him, just to get my view accross that NO ONE else has been good enough to not warrant fault. Even Blake and his freakin bad freethrows lol. Thats all im getting at stop throwing baron at me if im talking about Gordon or kaman or anyone else.

MrB
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Baron isn't even here anymore yet the debates still rage on. Gotta love the drama that guy has brought to TopBuzz. I wonder how long it will last though...hmm.

jarca
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u should be happy we're still talkin about baron. he's the only reason u signed up here for right? just to defend him lol

clipper*joe
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Clippersfan86 wrote:
clipper*joe wrote:
^^ For the last time, this isn't really a comparison. It's about what EJ meant. We all know EJ wants be the guy and it was Baron who was standing in his way. We don't know what relationship they both had but we do know where the animosity came from, just one side. We can speculate who was at fault but none of us know. We also know EJ got his looks and his stats prove that. Gordon wasn't anything more than a spot up shooter until this season. He didn't move on offense and he wasn't playing well off the ball. That falls on EJ, not Baron.

And just so we can kinda put perspective on this, in Baron's short time here ( lazy, fat, and unmotivated), here is where he ranks amongst the All-Time Clippers leaders in the following categories:

Assists: 7th all-time

Assists per game: 3rd all-time

Steals per game: 7th all-time

Assist %: All Time best- He holds the record with the best assist % in Clippers history

Steal %: 9th all time

Usage %: 9th all time in usage per game- kinda ironic when you consider he is fat, lazy, and unmotivated.

Statistically speaking, he did his job well for a PG.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/tea ... areer.html

Joe question for you. If you bought a Honda you expect reliability and good gas mileage for the price you pay right? Would you accept it was constantly breaking down and running out of gas when you need it the most? Or would you want your money back and be furious? Baron wasn't terrible.. but he sure as hell wasn't what we paid for/expected.

Baron is the Honda in case I lost anyone.

Reliability? Hmmm? Baron was our more liable player in the last 3 years before he was traded. And a Car has a sticker price whereas a player's contract is more like a car auction where you the car goes to the highest bidder. If you paid high for a car in an auction and you had a chance to look at the history of it before the bid, who's fault is that? Auctions don't have a 3 year protection plan.

Anyway, don't those team leader stats impress you? I mean, he was out of shape all that time, and wasn't engaged. Pretty impressive if you ask me.

Cliptonyte
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jarca wrote:
Cliptonyte wrote:
It sounds like you are talking about yourself there Joe. I have no insecurities about my opinions at all. It is you who comes across as insecure. Your constant refusal to admit that Baron Davis was a colossal failure here is pure homerism. You have the right to believe what you want though, but the world is flat for you, and you will never change your opinion because you don't want to admit to being wrong about the guy. I thought he was going to be great here, and guess what, I was wrong. I have no problem admitting to be wrong. However, it seems like you do my friend.

I don't really think you are empowered are on a power trip, but there are mods out there who do get empowered by being mods of a message board. I've seen them over the years. If you were on a power trip, you would constantly threaten to ban people. You guys do a good job.

^^^^^ agreed. we should poll topbuzz to see if baron davis' era was a failure or success. ONLY two options, let's see which one will win

I would like to see that.

clipper*joe
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Nah man, you remember when I PM'd you yesterday afternoon? My mind was made up then. That was my way of telling you, you have it covered. wink

youngkano
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If you have something to say to me jarca then say it. Seems like you have had a problem with me since ive been here. With you im done talking about Baron, with your snippy comment and smart remarks that you get at. I have discussion with others its fine, but you seem to have this nitt picking thing with me that kinda gets a lil personal. I really dont care for it. Not that serious. Its like you wait for me so u can reply. I find it funny

clipper*joe
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Stats don't lie, Cliptonyte. We got the present Baron, not the one from 5 years ago. Stats don't lie, not even in a flat world.

youngkano
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You guys can bash Baron, have polls, do as you wish. Thats still not gonna change my opinion on anything. I stopped talking about baron but the bashers couldnt stop and even made threads about him. It just doesnt stop. Even after he is gone

jarca
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a baron hater made this thread Embarassed

Cliptonyte
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Well, if you are happy with the Baron that we got, instead of the Baron that we thought we were getting, then more power to you my friend.

How about the number 3, which represents a stat for the number of years that he came in overweight and out of shape? How about the leader he was supposed to be? Do leaders take it easy in the off season, and come in overweight and out of shape?

What about his horrendous field goal percentage, or the horrendous three point percentage? There are probably guys on this message board that could make a higher percentage of three point shots.

Nobody disputes the guy's passing ability. I'll concede that all day long.

Stats are great, when you only show the favorable ones LOL

clipper*joe
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Me too. There will be a scapegoat.

people will never admit that last season when we were close to .500 ball, it was Gordon who got hurt and was out for 20 games. People blamed the ruptured pipe during the Griz game. People blamed baron for "giving up" after Griffin announced he wasn't coming back. Yet, Baron ended the season with a +17 and was the only guy not to quit in the second half of the season.

Ironically enough, Gordon gets hurt right before we go on the 11 game roadtrip and when we are balling.

Both those times, we had a chance to improve but we ended the same way we did last season:

on a run

Gordon injured

back to reality

People will call you crazy for even saying that. People will call you a Baron shill before admitting it. We both know that is the gospel truth.

Meh, people can dismiss this all they want. They can laugh it off but it's the simple truth.

youngkano
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Agree on that with you there, Joe.

youngkano
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Funny thing is that i learn we are fans just like any other teams fan including lakers fan. When things go bad we blame someone or make excuse that well if injuries didnt blah and blah. Ive been a clippers fan for 20 years seen all the injuries all the bad times. One thing ive finally put together is that we have to put the blame on the team as a whole. One man doesnt make a team. Its a collective effort as a "team"

clipper*joe
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Uh, what don't you get about Baron ending the last season with a +17, best on this team? What don't you get that despite him having conditioning issues, he was the healthiest guy the last 3 years?

And before we bring up his 3 pt %'s go look up Mo's and go and look up Baron's this season. Hell, Baron has the better shooting %'s than Mo.

"Stats are great, when you only show the favorable ones LOL"

I'd dismiss them too if the evidence isn't something you can't argue. lol

youngkano
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Oh well, as the words of all clippers fans...wait til next season!

david
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I don't think he's "jumping on people's throats". He's just debating you and everyone else- your side of the view vs his. The site will be boring if everyone agrees on everything. Just because you can't keep up the debate doesn't mean you have to start slinging mud. Just stay calm if you want to keep up the debate and post with other people's respect in mind, and it's all good.

LoneyROY7
Clipper Starter
 Avatar
Posts: 433
votes: 2

clipper*joe wrote:
youngkano wrote:
Im kinda glad Baron is gone. No more blame our season on Baron. Im just curious who will be the scapegoat next. Since Griffin is untouchable, and Gordon is too good to blame anything on. Will it be kaman next season? This will be interesting.

Me too. There will be a scapegoat.

people will never admit that last season when we were close to .500 ball, it was Gordon who got hurt and was out for 20 games. People blamed the ruptured pipe during the Griz game. People blamed baron for "giving up" after Griffin announced he wasn't coming back. Yet, Baron ended the season with a +17 and was the only guy not to quit in the second half of the season.

Ironically enough, Gordon gets hurt right before we go on the 11 game roadtrip and when we are balling.

Both those times, we had a chance to improve but we ended the same way we did last season:

on a run

Gordon injured

back to reality

People will call you crazy for even saying that. People will call you a Baron shill before admitting it. We both know that is the gospel truth.

Maybe there won't be a scapegoat next season.

I think we can make the same step next year, that OKC made last season. We definitely have the talent to do so, and with some shrewd off-season moves from our front office...I don't see any reason why we can't.

We have two 22-year old stars, who are already up there with the best at their respective positions. As long as we continue to build around them, I really believe the sky is the limit.

And Joe, there's absolutely no reason to have your moderator status removed. There's nothing wrong with having passionate opinions...I enjoy hearing your point of view, whether I agree with it or not. wink

tupac_makaveli
Clipper Starter
Posts: 404
votes: 2

i wonder how many wins we gonna have next season

youngkano
Clipper Starter
Posts: 458
votes: 4

The difference with OKC and us....injuries.

Greenmonk94
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1060
votes: 2

who knows but hopefully more then this year... i say hopefully cuz we said we will have more then last year.. 29 wins... and we might just hit that this year

clipperboy24
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4881
votes: 37

first off, that shows how pathetic out team history is.

2nd, Baron never played as well as he could have and not even close. We all know baron has talent but he never used nearly enough that talent because he was too lazy and out of shape.

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