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hockeypro68
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We are in need of a SHOOTING sf. Iguodala shoots poorly from the field and has no 3ball. He relies largely on driving to the basket. With Blake and Deandre (and Kaman) we need someone who can SHOOT from anywhere on the floor, not just rely on driving. Another problem with the trade is that we would be left with only 1 center. And I have a feeling we're going to end up overpaying DeAndre as is, but ESPECIALLY if we trade Kaman, cuz Deandre and other offering teams will know how much we need him. Also, Chris is a solid C in this league when healthy. People undervalue talented centers. Deandre, I'm sorry to say, is not ready to handle full-time starter minutes for the season. Besides, who will back him up? We have no one else. I think we need to keep Kaman and DeAndre, perhaps have both on the floor at times if they can make it work. Blake has shown impressive handles, and I'm sure they've considered and even worked on running Big with Blake, Kaman, and Deandre. But at the very least, they can work a 3 man rotation at PF and C. Size is valuable in this league, but equally so is Shoooooting. Which we have very little of.

botev1921
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Thanks for making an entire TOPIC to share your dumb argument! We do not need shooting, we have 2 shooters in Mo and EJ, we need someone, who can be a 3rd-4th option and who can DEFEND THE POSITION! We do not need Kaman, because no team has 20-22 mil. spent on centers and if we want to keep DJ we will...so our 6th man will be a center????! Basically, nothing of what you say stands, because it means we have no cap space to sign anybody better than Gomes at SF...think before wasting our time!

Battlegun
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Diogu would be our 2nd string Center.

marten81
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Why are there like 5 the same topics Mad

Clippersfan86
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You have very good points but you can definitely go about it in a nicer way no?

OptimusDimes
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This is what I suspect of most people who say we don't need Iggy and should keep Kaman...they seem to kinda fall in line with the same line of thinking that Kaman is awesomely better than DJ. Not to generalize every Kaman supporter, but it just rubs of kaman homerism.

WARNING:

The rest of the league and most of its fans disagree with your assesment of talent, chemistry, and basically how to build a team. It therefore becomes hard to see any logical standing ground...that is to say "I am right...it's just everyone else is wrong", pretty much including the FO with nothing from a true basketball strategic standpoint.

What do we do when Kaman gets hurt again? Decides to start complaining about playing time(because his agent will most assuredly stick his hand where the sun don't shine and Chris' mouth will start moving for his last big contract)? We're forced to watch Kaman walk away for less than he is worth right now because this will surely come to pass if any of these things happen?

DJ fits, IS blake's best friend, and passes the eye test.

Also for those of you who keep saying he is not ready for starter minutes you do realize last year was his first playing that many minutes and HE was made captain of the defense, the one who communicated to everyone else where they were supposed to be.

Someone sees some potential there.

ClipperPanda
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Does moving Blake as a 3 sometimes answer the shooting sf question? I understand the need for bigs but is an injury prone mid level center the answer while still trusting Gomes and a 20 year old to handle the sf load? The clippers are lucky if Kaman plays 50 games. Iguodala may not shoot as well as what is wanted but he shot around 33% last year from 3 and had a higher true shooting percent than Kaman over the last 3 years. With mowill and ej's shooting skills and iguodala's passing skills it opens up the 2 best shooters on the roster. Getting rid of Kaman might have to done.

hockeypro68
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You're a freaking idiot. Mo is a TERRIBLE shooter. We have One good shooter in Eric Gordon. Thats it. Mo is average at best. He's streaky as hell. We made that trade to save money and get rid of Baron. Aminu has shown to be a solid defender. And I don't deny Iguodala's defensive ability, I'm simply pointing out he's not the kind of player we should be going for. And YOUR argument for why we don't need Kaman makes no sense. Ike Diogu is not a full-time back up center. He doesnt have the size or rebounding. I'm aware of our Obvious need for a starting SF, but we need one that can shoot AND defend. You think Iggy would be willing to play as "3rd or 4th option" like you're suggesting? Rofl. Instead of attacking somone else's perspective why don't you try being constructive and making a counter argument. a*****.

clipperstown
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hey iguodala might not be a good shooter, but at least we know he'll be playing in close to every game, unlike kaman who plays an average of 50 games a season

clip
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please stop the personal attacks... we have enough of that already - why cant we discuss our opinions and be satisfied with that, we do not all have to be on the same page. respect each other

Clippersfan86
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hockeypro68 wrote:
botev1921 wrote:
Thanks for making an entire TOPIC to share your dumb argument! We do not need shooting, we have 2 shooters in Mo and EJ, we need someone, who can be a 3rd-4th option and who can DEFEND THE POSITION! We do not need Kaman, because no team has 20-22 mil. spent on centers and if we want to keep DJ we will...so our 6th man will be a center????! Basically, nothing of what you say stands, because it means we have no cap space to sign anybody better than Gomes at SF...think before wasting our time!

You're a freaking idiot. Mo is a TERRIBLE shooter. We have One good shooter in Eric Gordon. Thats it. Mo is average at best. He's streaky as hell. We made that trade to save money and get rid of Baron. Aminu has shown to be a solid defender. And I don't deny Iguodala's defensive ability, I'm simply pointing out he's not the kind of player we should be going for. And YOUR argument for why we don't need Kaman makes no sense. Ike Diogu is not a full-time back up center. He doesnt have the size or rebounding. I'm aware of our Obvious need for a starting SF, but we need one that can shoot AND defend. You think Iggy would be willing to play as "3rd or 4th option" like you're suggesting? Rofl. Instead of attacking somone else's perspective why don't you try being constructive and making a counter argument. a*****.

I asked the other guy to be a bit nicer and you responded by calling him an idiot. I'm giving you an official warning to cut the personal attacks out. Thanks. I refuse to let this website go to hell with trolls and personal attacks like Insidehoops or RealGM as long as I'm a moderator. There is no reason to make it personal. Let's keep it respectful.

marten81
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Mo is a good shooter, if u have 2 seasons of over 350 shots, shooting over .420, than imo u can shoot a decent 3. Why was it worse at cleveland this season? Well im not sure, as i didnt really watch them a lot, but im asuming that with lebron gone he got a lot less open shots. If we have AI taking a bit of the passing game, and gordon and blake out there there will offcourse be plenty of open shots for him again. And his % will go straight back up to 40%+. IF u dont count ppl who take less than 70 shots over the season he was top 15 in those seasons, seriously, how is that TERRIBLE?

clipper*joe
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Actually, it isn't a dumb argument. Yes, we need to be more defensive but ONE guy isn't going to do it. If you're banking on Iggy to make us a top 1o defensive team, you're the one that has faulty logic. We need a Defensive scheme and commitment to play defense.

Last season was about the defense breaking down, and not the fault of the SF position. VDN isn't a defensive minded coach. And if you don't believe me, just look at how great the Bulls defense became after VDN left. Even with a guy like Boozer who plays no D, they're still one of the best defensive teams.

MO can't guard anyone. EJ can't defend the post. DJ doesn't know how to defend a player once he back down on him. Griffin hasn't committed to playing a lick of defense. Nope, that falls on the coach. Iggy can't solve that. We need a defensive minded assistant that can help these guys commit, trust one another, and actually have a philosophy to teach these kids.

TheDude
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I actually agree with OP to a degree. Trading Kaman now does put us in a tough position when Houston signs DJ for 10mil per year and we have to match or go into the season with a Collins brother as our starting C.

However, I do think the need for a pure shooter is reduced now that we have a shoot-first PG who can hit from deep fairly consistently (Mo is not a bad shooter, big upgrade from Baron in that regard)...What we need is a good player at the position and we don't have it now. I'll take Iggy if we don't have to give up any of our young guys. If that doesn't happen, it's fine. We sign a FA and have Kaman as the 6th man...See how it goes for the first half and either keep him through a playoff run or trade him at the deadline.

Don't mortgage the future for Andre Iguodala.

Voyeur
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Mo is a little streaky but seriously, who has more than one reliable shooter? The Clippers have Gordon and Foye and, yes, Mo is a threat from the outside, especially during key moments. Fact is, Iggy can shoot from the outside even if not as well as others. I'm not really sure why it's necessary to have a consistent outside shooter at SF. Don't you think his defense and passing are, in fact, more important?

tense2
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clipper*joe wrote:
botev1921 wrote:
Thanks for making an entire TOPIC to share your dumb argument! We do not need shooting, we have 2 shooters in Mo and EJ, we need someone, who can be a 3rd-4th option and who can DEFEND THE POSITION! We do not need Kaman, because no team has 20-22 mil. spent on centers and if we want to keep DJ we will...so our 6th man will be a center????! Basically, nothing of what you say stands, because it means we have no cap space to sign anybody better than Gomes at SF...think before wasting our time!

Actually, it isn't a dumb argument. Yes, we need to be more defensive but ONE guy isn't going to do it. If you're banking on Iggy to make us a top 1o defensive team, you're the one that has faulty logic. We need a Defensive scheme and commitment to play defense.

Last season was about the defense breaking down, and not the fault of the SF position. VDN isn't a defensive minded coach. And if you don't believe me, just look at how great the Bulls defense became after VDN left. Even with a guy like Boozer who plays no D, they're still one of the best defensive teams.

MO can't guard anyone. EJ can't defend the post. DJ doesn't know how to defend a player once he back down on him. Griffin hasn't committed to playing a lick of defense. Nope, that falls on the coach. Iggy can't solve that. We need a defensive minded assistant that can help these guys commit, trust one another, and actually have a philosophy to teach these kids.

Yeah we need a defensive scheme and that's what I think Dean (asst. coach) will bring but it does hurt to add a top notch defensive player at his position to the mix.

bballman
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i just love the fact that some Clipper fans act like we have all the best players and don't want to trade anyone.we need to change the roster by moving a few guys.who we've had is just not working.trading Kaman is a must.it's time to stop overrating our own players.there is a reason why we've been sucking.it's not because we have awesome players.

OptimusDimes
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Actually there is a great article on clipperblog about Iggy that does a good job disproven this statement.

clipper*joe
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OptimusDimes wrote:
Quote:
Actually, it isn't a dumb argument. Yes, we need to be more defensive but ONE guy isn't going to do it. If you're banking on Iggy to make us a top 1o defensive team, you're the one that has faulty logic.

Actually there is a great article on clipperblog about Iggy that does a good job disproven this statement.

Disproving? What is it that "disproves" what I said?

I read it for amusement but I saw nothing that disproves my statement. Where does it say that he makes a team top 10 defensive?

All I saw was an argument based on the PER which is not a NBA stat...But a stat by a ESPN guy. I saw an article making the case for him based on that stat and position, nothing more. He is a good defender no doubt, but he hasn't taken his team far. I think the fact that the Sixers want to dump him is more telling than a PER stat. But that's just me.

ClipThemOff
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Mo is not a great shooter but when he is on one he will light it up...

Foye is just about the same... and sometimes you can argue Eric Gordon is too... so infact there is no true pure shooter on this team other than EJ himself who is streaky.

Iggy is no shooter and overpaid. You sign Iggy you are going to loose one of the youngsters in couple years.

Taylor
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So we just need a team of all shooters minus DeAndre Jordan to start for us? We'll be Phoenix, New York and Golden State then, high scoring, high flying with 0 defense and we won't be going anywher efar in the playoffs if we even make it there.

Igoudala provides scoring, passing, defense and an all around game that is far too good to trash like this. I wish you could still give negative reputation.

ClipThemOff
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PHX has Lopez and Gortat for D. Grant Hill is a good defender as well.

NY and GS are pure garbage as D and offense.. they do not even have pure shooters on their teams lol. GS has Ellis and Curry who go way streaky at times like EJ

if you noticed how many games the clips lost because the shot cold at the end of games and not messing up on defense then you will agree.. TOO MANY GAMES WERE LOST IN THE LAST MINUTES... When EJ goes cold its over.

ClipThemOff
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may i add the Defense on the Clips would be much better even with the current team if the coach didn't start cutting himself during the zone

clipper*joe
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We're the Phoenix's, New York's, and Golden state's. We just can't score as efficiently as them. We tried to play fast, and we didn't play any defense.

Clippers_FTW
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Sheesh... another Iggy bashing thread.... NO NO DONT GET IGGY.. WE HAVE GOMES!!! YAY!!! GOMES IS AWESOME!!! YAY!!!! (sarcasm)

OptimusDimes
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This site is the most limiting site I have ever posted on, and then when you mess up you lose your whole post. Why?

Joe, please reread the post because I could easily dismantle your point without the article, but to throw statistical data out the window is just wronng. Are there any stats you would like to use or are we just using the eye(I) test?

Clippers_FTW
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Iggy may not be the answer but its a step in the right direction... Doing nothing we fail.

clipperstown
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idk how some of you are complaining about iggy ( arguably the best SF defender!) you could never have too much defense!

clipper*joe
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OptimusDimes wrote:
Quote:
Disproving? What is it that "disproves" what I said?

I read it for amusement but I saw nothing that disproves my statement.

This site is the most limiting site I have ever posted on, and then when you mess up you lose your whole post. Why?

Joe, please reread the post because I could easily dismantle your point without the article, but to throw statistical data out the window is just wronng. Are there any stats you would like to use or are we just using the eye(I) test?

I'm not understanding your first sentence. I lose my whole post?

Anyway, for the sake of argument, please post the part that refutes my specific comment you quoted. I said he would not make us a top 10 defensive team. Now, please quote something from the blog that refutes that. He couldn't make the sixers a top 10 defensive team this past season so what in the article refutes that? I understand the point of the blog, it's just about his personal stats, not how he makes teams better defensively.

I'm not trying to move the goal post here, nothing in the blog talks about team, just him.

By the way, you can try and dismantle whatever you feel will make your argument...I can deal with it. I am just confused because my comment is specific about how good defensively he can make us...or not. You didn't give an opinion but rather a blog I had to search for. And even then, it was just about him as player and nothing there refutes my comment. In fact, I went to another link from that blog and it it talks about is his personal stats and not how well he makes teams better defensively.

Kindly post the part that refutes my comment and we can go from there.

OptimusDimes
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Yes, coming to a forum near you because now I have...the power...hehehe

OptimusDimes
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Like I said, I don't need to post anything from anywhere to refute that weak sauce you put out there... but I am curious before I go into this diatribe, as to what you would do if you were the GM of this team, and I know I don't have to tell you to keep it in the realms of reality.

OptimusDimes
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Not U. Me. If I go over the quote letter count, or the quote caption count I...Me...I lose my post. Am I doing something wrong, or if not can some IT person fix this...it's annoying.

marten81
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He ment that he made a whole post, than lost it as he did something wrong, and than didnt want to look for all the quotes again. Not to hard to understand imo.

Anyway.

--quote--

About his current team:

[H]e’s anchoring a team ranked 9th in DFR when really only one other player on the roster can even be considered average defensively " Elton Brand " and average might be a stretch. Jrue Holiday and Evan Turner will both probably wind up being very good defenders, but they aren’t there yet. Iguodala is the only fully-formed defensive piece, and the guys protecting the rim behind Iguodala are an absolute joke, yet he still shuts down everyone he faces.

About what he would do for the clippers:

Bringing in Iguodala would completely change the dynamic of the Clippers’ defense. They’d have a player who could guard three positions, shut down elite-level players at those positions, and bring leadership to the end of the floor where the Clippers lack the most focus and consistency.

Regardless of his skill level, just replacing Gomes and Aminu with an elite defender would do wonders for the Clippers’ D. Try getting past Gordon and Iguodala on the perimeter. Fat chance. And if you do, be prepared to have your shot blocked into the tenth row by DeAndre Jordan.

--end quote--

Where as u claim there is only being refered to 1 personal stat, while there is even explained that the 1 stat u mention is not the most important defensive stat in the eye of the poster. According to the poster PPP is the most important defensive stat, PPP stands for points alowed per posession by your direct opponent. AI was ranked No1 of the league in that category. Now its "not an NBA" stat, so according to u it doesn't mean much. To me it means loads, as he is most of the time facing the best scorer of the oposing team, or well, the best scoring wingman atleast. Having a guy like that would automatically mean more rest for your other defenders, hence improving team def.

Anyway, kaman is in his last year, he isn't going to resign anyway since he'll share minutes and iggy would give us 5 good starters, and if the argument is "but in the future" keeping kaman is obviously worse for the future as his contract will expire.

OptimusDimes
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Thanx for saving me time.

repped +1

OptimusDimes
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There is definitely a lot more meat in that article if you read it unbiasly and you know our team personnel and the direction they are going.

Hint: 5 man squad focusing on O or D.

A7XDreamTheaterClipps
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I've been a fan for over 10 years now and one thing I'm tired of is waiting for nothing(pipe dreams) to happen. I remember we let the entire offseason pass by without making any good moves because we were so hooked on trying to sign Kobe. Because of that, we let Q walk and we missed out on some other great FA's(Ray Allen) that year. Right now, the Clippers are having trade talks with Iggy. Kaman is hurt all the time and does not coexist well with Griffin. We already have a young, athletic center in DJ who does coexist well with Griffin and is a much harder worker and has a lot more potential. Sure, DJ won't be an offensive performer, he won't be a 20 point scorer, but we don't need him to be. We already have 2 guys capable of putting up 25 a game. DJ can be similar to a young Mutombo. Iggy may not be a superior jump shooter, but he can knock down the 3, and his jumper is average which is something I'm not mad at. 3 point shooting is important, but whats even more important is defense and chemistry. Iggy is an athletic freak that can run with our other freaks and he's one of the best perimeter defenders in the league, and he can score when needed to but is not selfish.

And also, some of you are acting like this is the only move the Clippers are gonna do. We're not even in the offseason yet, there's still 2 potential games left in the Finals. I hope the Clipps make this trade asap so we have the time to make other moves. We have time to make moves to bring in a veteran backup center, or make trades to bring in shooters and fill up our bench.

clipperboy24
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very nice first post, couldnt agree more. History has shown the clippers rarely take advantage of their cap space and trading opportunities so it would be nice if they actually made a move here.

Taylor
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You noobs know how much better our offense is going to be next year? Griffin is going to have better post moves and will be better offensively big time, Gordon was streaky at times and will be better next year as well, both guys are really young and are learning a lot.

Mo Williams is a terrific shooter all in his own, had problems last year due to a slight injury to one of his hands I believe, which will effect your shooting. With Gomes, Aminu and Bledsoe off the bench, along with Foye we should have stronger bench play and more effective scoring. Igoudala will get a lot more open looks and won't have the weight of being the #1 guy on his shoulders which I think he will embrace big time.

If Igoudala gets traded to this team and he has a lower FG and 3pt % than he did last year, and he's HEALTHY the whole year, then I'll leave this forum and never return. I guarantee he will put up very good numbers and help us win games next year and improve our record. If he doesn't, then I'll leave.

clipper*joe
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: [H]e’s anchoring a team ranked 9th in DFR when really only one other player on the roster can even be considered average defensively " Elton Brand " and average might be a stretch. Jrue Holiday and Evan Turner will both probably wind up being very good defenders, but they aren’t there yet. Iguodala is the only fully-formed defensive piece, and the guys protecting the rim behind Iguodala are an absolute joke, yet he still shuts down everyone he faces.
Well, nice to know that the DFR rank is being placed solely on IGGY when it from what I saw last season,....

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Taylor
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Iggy = our best option for SF bar none. Nobody else is available and theres no guarantees in the free agent market.

cleepers
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Here's an 'old-school', 'NBA-recognized' stat:

2010-2011 NBA All-defense 2nd team:

Tony Allen, Chris Paul, Tyson Chandler, Andre Iguodala, Joakim Noah

Perhaps if VDN has some defenders to coach, he can coach some defense.

JamFan
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32 Wins.....32 Wins,,,,,,with Kaman. Uh....er....well he was injured again for yet another long stint during the season. I have seen this movie before, and if we keep Kaman we will see the rerun of that movie again. Meanwhile, on our main page the very lopsided poll shows that 88% of the Clipper fans voting want this trade to go down. Right now the vote is 66 - 9. And for the 9 I ask the same question I have asked on every other thread on this issue, if not Iggy, then who? Who else can we trade for? Which team is willing to trade their stud SF for a broken down center who has only played 32 games in 2 of the last 3 seasons? Who? Where? Who are we going to get? Or do we stand pat. 32 Wins. 50 Losses. And if we keep Kaman and he gets injured again in the last year of his contract...then we get nothing. Now if you are looking for cap space for 2012 and want to roll that dice after another lost season then I guess that is your plan. Our GM's see that the future is now. They will pull the trigger if they can.

Clipswhit
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I agree with OP here. Kaman was injured all season, but if he can stay healthy (big if), we're going to be dangerous next season. The thing with bigs is that they tend to go down pretty often, that's why you want to have many of them.

Clipswhit
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Well, I'd be really happy taking Prince with our cap space.

Kaman + Prince > Igodala - Kaman - Aminu

SDclipper
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After our 5-21 start we ended the year 27-29 with a bunch of injuries and lineup changes. Using the entire season's record isn't my favorite way to go about presenting arguments but I think as a whole you're right. I think Iguodala presents a more efficient upgrade at SF than Kaman does at C by keeping him around but I don't think it's a no-brainer.

I agree with the original post regarding who is going to be our backup center. I hope it's not Diogu and I don't see DJ being a guy who will be racking up 42 minutes a night. He may be able to contribute 30-35 very good minutes but I think at some point he will need to have the luxury of taking a breather and knowing someone capable can take his place. I'm not sure Diogu qualifies as capable at center.

This is why I wanted Gallinari at the deadline last year (well, even before that). He can shoot the ball from the outside and although he is a little behind defensively, who knows? Maybe not playing for D'Antoni anymore could've benefited him. I don't know if he plays defense better in Denver, I'm just using the NY example.

So I guess that leaves Iggy. Sure, bring it on. He's not Danny Granger but he's certainly the most available option, and probably one that we really shouldn't be getting to be quite honest. I think he will be able to sure up the defense a little bit and create open shots for EJ and Mo. You've got to give up something to get something and I think this is the time to do it, especially with no first-round pick and no free agency guarantees. I would just advise everyone to not be so eager to push Kaman out the door because I can envision there being quite a few times next year where we wish we had him.

clipperstown
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The thing with kaman is, he wants to be traded. He has said before that he does not want to share minutes with dj. Even if he starts, he doesn't want dj backing him up because he knows that dj will get alot of time on the floor... Now tell me how that kind of mentality helps a team? He's gonna leave next year, might as well get something in return.

Clippers_FTW
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Kamen wants out. Yet some people still want him here. ummm ok?

ekker3
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i like kaman as much as the next guy, probably more (heck he's been my avatar since forever). the problem is his contract runs out after this next locked out year. one thing's for sure, if we plan on resigning kaman, he's gonna be getting a paycut and will have to understand that DJ's gonna be eating away his minutes. if that's the case, i think its safe to say that kaman would rather play somewhere else (higher salary, starters minutes). you cant blame him for it.

bottom line: kaman's leaving and we need something for him. it makes absolutely no sense to keep the modern day mr. clipper (with all respect to loy vaught and eric piatkowski).

clipper*joe
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votes: 129

Jeezus guys, Kaman never hinted that he wants to be traded. He also never said he doesn't want to share minutes with DJ. His comment was taken out of context and people fell for it. There was a thread started about this. I found the original video of that interview after the Rockets game and it isn't portrayed as some people would love to see it. It's posted in that thread.

Maybe you guys need to find that thread and look at the video.

Clippersfan86
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Age: 28
Posts: 15374
votes: 91

Partyman. Good post Ekker, I agree. BTW Good job new members for posting good material and debating respectfully.

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