Barnes or Butler?

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Who would you prefer would start? (dont worry about $$)
Matt Barnes
9%
 9%  [3]
Caron Butler
90%
 90%  [29]
Total Votes : 32

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xldicelx
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1056
votes: 5

Here's a question for you CTB.

After seeing much discussions about Matt Barnes, would you like to see him start over Butler? Why or Why not?

I get the feeling that we are all 50/50 on Barnes but it seems like some people really like him... I love his toughness but he still rubs me the wrong way. He's too thuggish when it's not needed (maybe cuz he was on the fLAkers - lol) Either way what do you guys think?

I'll re-ask, would you like to see him start over Butler? Why or Why not?

cleepers
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 8873

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votes: 110

Butler, no contest. With Chauncey keeping defenses honest, Butler was dropping 15 points in the first quarter in some games early last year. If they sagged off him, he was making them pay from deep in a way that Barnes never could.

That said, if it's a close game in crunch time Barnes pesky defense will come in very handy.

no1wammy
Posts: 163
votes: 2

Butler, hands down. Matt Barnes fits best as a member of the Goon Squad unit, along with Bledsoe, Hollins and Turiaf. Combined, I think their hustle will put pressure against scoring opponents.

Ricky
Clipper Starter
Posts: 712
votes: 7

Hill is our best SF.

tense2
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 8851
votes: 20

Don't think it's "hands down" by any means (numbers indicate that)...fans choice, o.k. Like I said in another thread, the SF position is now much, much better than last years area of weakness.

xldicelx
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1056
votes: 5

the question is Barnes or Butler... not Hill but I do agree

tense2
CTB MVP X2
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votes: 20

xldicelx wrote:
Ricky wrote:
Hill is our best SF.
the question is Barnes or Butler... not Hill but I do agree

Based on what.

ClipSince7thGrade
Clipper Starter
Posts: 558
votes: 0

I'd have to go with Butler. He fits better in the starting line up. Just like no1wammy said, Barnes is better fitted to be in the goon squad, just add crawford to that line up and we have a real threatening (most likely) third string squad.

cashdld
Clipper Starter
Posts: 426
votes: 3

i would say hiolll is our best defensive small forward, butler is our best offensive small forward, and barnes our best slashing small forward

cashdld
Clipper Starter
Posts: 426
votes: 3

Hill* ^^^^^

FightOnRon
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4734
Location: The Darkside
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votes: 37

Butler,,,team was built under the premise of him being a starter and they function well as a starting unit,,don't eff with it (and I don't like Barnes anyhow,,,,unless he flattens Kobe,,then we'll rethink))

CP3Best
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4938
votes: 12

I just hope Butler regains his form when he was dropping 16 with Chauncey on the floor, other wise bye bye butler!

pageC4
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4603

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votes: 24

I think coach needs to view this position as one to experiment with. Butler should start, but Hill and Barnes should be allowed to rotate. If either one performs better then Butler should be forced to step down to the candidate that is performing better

sfernald
Clipper Starter
Posts: 462
votes: 7

I'm just curious why you didn't add hill in there? I would have chosen him above the other two as the starter. I can't recall a team having three strong SFs the way the Clips do. Barnes was probably the laker's best bench player last year (reg season).

ohMEohMy!
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 3707

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votes: 32

cashdld wrote:
Ricky wrote:
Hill is our best SF.
i would say hiolll is our best defensive small forward, butler is our best offensive small forward, and barnes our best slashing small forward

now if we could combine all 3 into some kind of frankenstein SF, we'd really have something...

xldicelx
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1056
votes: 5

someone (clipperJOE) please photoshop something..... lol

1clipperfan
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 127
Location: 1clipperfan
votes: 8

BUTLER. Barnes will be used as Blake's "Marty McSorley". Not that Blake can't defend himself... it's better to have a role player ejected than your star player. He'll keep opposing defenses honest.

xldicelx
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1056
votes: 5

My co-worker and I were thinking the samething... but at some point I would think barnes will want to just play ball too..

Andrew818
Clipper Starter
Posts: 780
votes: 11

Butler hands down.Don't let stats confuse you Butler is a way better all around player than Barnes.It is a joke that this is even a serious question,no offense.Barnes would never start unless Butler and Hill get injuried.As far as who is the better starter between Hill or Butler it depends because Hill is a better defender and Butler is a better scorer.Again I am not trying to insult anyone but if Barnes didn't start over MWP than why would he start over Butler?

ClipperB23
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 2123
votes: 19

Butler no doubt, some of you guys aren't giving him the respect that he deserves. Sure he was injured and had some off games but he also had many great games as well.

I'll admit though, looking at Barnes numbers I was suprised, he does get a whole lot of blocks.

tha_situation
Posts: 175
votes: 1

11 vs 2, you're probably 1 of the 2 that voted for Barnes. You still have the feeling that the board is 50/50 on Barnes?

Clippers_FTW
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4554

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votes: 11

50/50? What the hell? 16 to 2 at this point...

tense2
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 8851
votes: 20

Tell me how those stats confuse you that you can just dismiss them as a joke. It true that stats can be misleading at times, but geez just to toss them out all together is disingenuous IMO. If you like him and it's your OPINION he's better...well o.k., but to say forget the numbers just doesn't make sense to me. You have to measure players talents by some standard(s) other than I like or think he's better than the other guy.

Just in case you didn't even look at them:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... mp;y3=2012

wessleejr
Clipper Starter
Posts: 984

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votes: 2

I don't care who will start as long as we are winning.

clipboard
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1333

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votes: 4

Let the opponent 'match up' determine the choice. That is want coaches do, some of them?

Andrew818
Clipper Starter
 Avatar
Posts: 780
votes: 11

I understand 100% were you are coming from and from what you have presented you make a great point why Barnes should be in the discussion to start.But what these stats don't tell you is that the majority of the time Barnes was on the court,he was on the court with Kobe.Doesn't seem like it should matter much but the reason I dismiss these stats so easily is because if you watch the Lakers games and you see Barnes on the court,players don't pay much attention to him because they are so worried about double teaming Kobe,Bynum,or Gasol.By doing this they leave Barnes open a lot so the Lakers can kick the ball out to Barnes and he can shoot or drive in for a easy dunk/lay up.I can guarantee you that most of Barnes scoring was due mainly to this.Also the reason his rebounds are so high is because he was left open to get the rebound because his man was helping out with Gasol/Bynum.If MWP could actually score with any consistency he would have stats that make him look like an All Star.Now I am not saying Barnes is trash but if you look at Kobe when he is scoring and notice how many times he takes difficult shots with two defenders on him.That defender was supposed to be on MWP or Barnes but didn't respect their shooting and instead of covering them decided to double Kobe.That right there is a HUGE part that these stats don't mention at all.

Now if we take a look at Butler on the other hand,when Billups was on the court with him he was putting up anywhere from 15-20+ points a night.When Billups got injured his stats dramatically dropped to 10-15 points a night.The reason behind this was teams would focus mainly on Paul,Blake,and Butler and not worry much about Foye or DJ because they had limited skill sets.If you go back and look at how many bad shots Butler had to take you would see why his stats have dropped.Defenders don't worry about Foye and go after Butler who is a great player but is not Kobe so he could not take and make bad shots like Kobe could so his scoring understandably went down while Foye had a pretty good year because of how many open shots he got.Foye had a great job last season,all he had to do was wait at the 3 point line and have CP3 kick it out to him for an open shot while when Butler got the ball he was depended on to create his own shot.If Barnes was put in the position that Butler was put in I can promise you that Barnes offensive stats would look flat out terrible.Also Barnes defensive stats look good but remember he wasn't guarding Durant,Carmelo,Lebron,Peirce,Gay,Etc for most of the game.He was guarding guys coming off the bench for most of the game while Butler had to guard the starters.That is why I dismiss these stats so easily because they don't tell you the whole story.

Put it this way if Barnes was as good as his stats lead to believe why would the Lakers not resign him?The reason is because he is easily replaceable.I know it sucks to hear but it is true.Barnes has been known as the perfect role player for his entire career because that is exactly what he is.The reason he hasn't been given a starting job is because coaches know he wouldn't be able to contribute what he could off the bench.While I like him on our bench if we had to rely on him to be our staring SF I would be worried as should you.

tense2
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 8851
votes: 20

You didn't convince me, but just re-enforced the idea that your opinion and who you THINK is better, is your way of gaging a players worth. Just because the Lakers didn't resign him has absolutely nothing to do with how good or bad the player actually is...mistakes on drafting, FA signings and trades happen everyday in the NBA....FO's and teams screw up all the time.

Since you dismissed those numbers, maybe you can try and dismiss these advanced matrix stats also. Look at the last 2 years:

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compa ... 8=✓

Andrew818
Clipper Starter
Posts: 780
votes: 11

First off I am not trying to convince you of anything.I am just trying to shed some light on why all these stats look the way they do.Don't know how that makes you think am I gauging the players off who I like when in actuality I am just trying to help you understand how misleading these stats are.You can post as many stats as you can find but the point I was making is that they don't tell you the whole story and if you can't see that then me and you arguing would be a waste of time.To make it easy we can just look at the poll which currently is 20-3 in favor of Butler.Secondly I am not a Barnes hater.While I didn't like some of his antics against the Clippers,I understand that he does that to all the teams he plays against.The reason I am agaisnt the idea of him starting is because he won't be a more efficient starter than Butler or Hill.Either way VDN will decide who will start and as long as we are winning it won't matter who starts.

tense2
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 8851
votes: 20

You don't have to explain to me the back story of stats...I get that and the Polls (peoples opinions only). The stats tell a lot more of the story then what you want to BELIEVE.....so be it, your choice.

I relate this discussion/debate to having a conversation with a Republican (not saying you are one of them, lol)...who won't let fact checking get in the way of their BELIEFS.

Anyway, no harm, no foul you have the right to believe what makes you feel the most comfortable. wink

P.S.

How to you prove that Barnes can't be a more efficient starter than either Butler or Hill....how do you gage efficiency and what numbers are you using, lol.

CP3Best
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4938
votes: 12

If Barnes would start a few times and do something consistently he would be packaged for something, now for someone who doesn't know this very well, are there any trades options for Butler that a team would give us?

A_DOG_NAMED_BUD
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1470

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votes: 9

Butler is should start, Hill should back him up, and Barnes should play what ever minutes are left for him.

clipperboy24
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4878
votes: 37

there is a reason Matt Barnes was signed this late and for the veteran minimum... He is not a starter. Guy just does not have the skills to be a starter. The real question is does Hill or Butler start? I think Butler is the main starter but wouldnt be surprised if Hill got a few starts. Odom might be able to play that SF position too.

xldicelx
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1056
votes: 5

HERE'S another question: can Barnes play the SG position if needed

CP3Best
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4938
votes: 12

Of course Barnes can play the sf if needed, don't think it'll be needed though!

tense2
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 8851
votes: 20

clipperboy24 wrote:
xldicelx wrote:
Here's a question for you CTB.

After seeing much discussions about Matt Barnes, would you like to see him start over Butler? Why or Why not?

I get the feeling that we are all 50/50 on Barnes but it seems like some people really like him... I love his toughness but he still rubs me the wrong way. He's too thuggish when it's not needed (maybe cuz he was on the fLAkers - lol) Either way what do you guys think?

I'll re-ask, would you like to see him start over Butler? Why or Why not?

there is a reason Matt Barnes was signed this late and for the veteran minimum... He is not a starter. Guy just does not have the skills to be a starter. The real question is does Hill or Butler start? I think Butler is the main starter but wouldnt be surprised if Hill got a few starts. Odom might be able to play that SF position too.

Just curious, what are the skills to be a starter and how do you gage them?....if it's $ than Butler wins....hands down. Smile

CP3Best
CTB MVP X1
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Barnes is the best per 36 minutes guy that we have!

hoopfanjd31
Clipper Starter
Posts: 724
votes: 3

Let's leave politics out of this discussion and off the board in general. I get your point, but I'm sure a lot of republicans (I'm not one, but know plenty) feel the exact same way about talking to democrats. So, IMO its probably best to leave political parties out of a sports discussion. OK, off my soapbox now.

As for the topic of this thread, I'm in favor of keeping Butler as the starter. Butler was red hot in the beginning of last season when the first unit included Billups. With a longer season, Billups back and more competent back-ups to give him more rest, I think we're going to see the Butler from the first half of last season. So, I think he should start. But, at the end of the day, since we have Hill and Barnes, I doubt Butler ends up playing much more than 20 minutes a game in the regular season anyway even if he stays completely healthy the whole season.

clipperboy24
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4878
votes: 37

tense2 wrote:
clipperboy24 wrote:
xldicelx wrote:
Here's a question for you CTB.

After seeing much discussions about Matt Barnes, would you like to see him start over Butler? Why or Why not?

I get the feeling that we are all 50/50 on Barnes but it seems like some people really like him... I love his toughness but he still rubs me the wrong way. He's too thuggish when it's not needed (maybe cuz he was on the fLAkers - lol) Either way what do you guys think?

I'll re-ask, would you like to see him start over Butler? Why or Why not?

there is a reason Matt Barnes was signed this late and for the veteran minimum... He is not a starter. Guy just does not have the skills to be a starter. The real question is does Hill or Butler start? I think Butler is the main starter but wouldnt be surprised if Hill got a few starts. Odom might be able to play that SF position too.

Just curious, what are the skills to be a starter and how do you gage them?....if it's $ than Butler wins....hands down. Smile

the ability to consistently score or at least be a legit offensive threat if not you better be one of the better defensive players in the game (Matt Barnes isnt). Caron didnt have a great year last year, kinda got hampered by injuries but Barnes has not and is not a starter for a reason. Skills is probably only part of that because he seems to have a pretty bad attitude.

tense2
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 8851
votes: 20

Hmmm, starter issue aside, he has the stats:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... mp;y3=2012

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compa ... 2310003%3B

lacsmoove
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1223
votes: 7

given age, past performance etc. etc. I believe Butler is the best of the 3. Yet we need an upgrade IMO. Biased or unbiased, ESPN has all of our players other than CP3, Blake and DJ (DJ was ranked 86th) are ranked 110 and below as far as best players in the league. And to be honest I somewhat agree with them . I still think we need to make an upgrade at the SF position.

CP3Best
CTB MVP X1
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votes: 12

I hear Danny Granger wants out of Indy!

clipperboy24
CTB MVP X1
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votes: 37

tense2 wrote:
clipperboy24 wrote:

the ability to consistently score or at least be a legit offensive threat if not you better be one of the better defensive players in the game (Matt Barnes isnt). Caron didnt have a great year last year, kinda got hampered by injuries but Barnes has not and is not a starter for a reason. Skills is probably only part of that because he seems to have a pretty bad attitude.

Hmmm, starter issue aside, he has the stats:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... mp;y3=2012

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compa ... 2310003%3B

tense you are too predictable. i almost prefaced my statement but i figured i would let you post the stats. Now where has Matt barnes done this with long term minutes? Ahh, but thats being too realistic and answering the only true question was being a starter or not. Which is hilarious because you said starter issue aside... wait were we talking about something else?

clipperboy24
CTB MVP X1
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and btw, i dont want a starter with his stats... hello ryan gomes 2.0

tense2
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 8851
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Since there's not that much difference in mpg between them (6+ mins more per game for Butler and 5+mins more per game for Hill than Barnes), I guess Per 36 doesn't count when comparing the 3 last year...Oh well.

CP3Best
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4938
votes: 12

Free agency sucks the next few years, there's only a few notable players that could make an impact better on our starting roster! Only way we can get guys is through trades, and the draft. I hope we don't trade away our draft picks anymore!

Amnesty_David_Stern
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 2333
votes: 7

Is this question serious?

Barnes is going to come off the bench plain and simple. We aren't paying Butler 7 million dollars a year to ride the pine.

Clipperfn4lf
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1460
votes: 11

i hear danny granger is overrated

Andrew818
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votes: 11

You guys still don't understand how misleading these stats are.Butler was playing most of his minutes against guys like Lebron James,Kevin Durant,Rudy Gay,etc while Barnes was playing most of his minutes against guys like Shane Battier,Corey Brewer,Mike Miller,etc.You can't compare their numbers because they are not playing against the same level of competition.Matt Barnes played 22.9 minutes per game last year and maybe about 10 of those minutes were against starting SF while Butler played 29.7 minutes per game and about 22 of those minutes were against starting SF.You can't compare their stats if they are facing different levels of competition because that is misleading.

There is a reason Barnes wasn't playing in the playoffs because in the playoffs Durant played a lot more minutes so the Lakers would have MWP play more minutes.I like Barnes on our team but he just isn't a starter,if he played as our starter and Butler came off the bench then their stats would be a lot different.Barnes stats would drop while Butlers would increase.This isn't opinion this is fact,they play against different levels of competition.All these stats don't mean anything because they are not factoring in the level of competition they are playing against.The only way these stats would be useful is comparing two starters or two bench players but even then they don't tell you the whole story.

CP3Best
CTB MVP X1
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You are wise Andrew!

Heediot
Clipper Starter
Posts: 958
votes: 4

Honestly, I wouldn't mind Hill starting with Barnes coming off the bench. If only we could find a taker for Butler.

Given his salary, Butler over Barnes. In certain match-ups and for certain purposes, I'd take one over the other.

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